A local seller has this sad-looking (but salvageable?) Graziano SAG 210 lathe: The black gunk on the ways is supposedly some kind of cosmoline-like substance (it's waxy/tarry) so the ways are allegedly still pretty good under it. Spindle turns freely, gears shift nicely (not under power, but the shifters move and 'clunk' like they're going into gear) but obviously this thing's a hefty project.
Worst part is the cross-slide. The owner says he has the handwheel and screw and whatnot, but the toolpost and cross-slide casting are missing. The brief writeup on these models on Lathes.co.uk mentions some nifty features (like shift-on-the-fly) and this particular one has some useful aspects; a 2'-plus through-hole, D1-6 chuck, an MT5 (!) tailstock barrel and a 22' swing. The guy's out of his tree on the price, but might be willing to dicker or do a partial trade. What I'd like to know is how good this brand is in general, how good these machines are, availability of parts, and so on. Basically, assuming I could get it for scrap price or nearly so, would it be worth the effort of putting this thing back together? The cross-slide is of course a major issue.
Anyone know of a parts machine, a scrapper that might have parts, or some other source? Doc, That is a very sad sight:( I have used Grazianos for years, having a SAG 12 of my own and a SAG 14 at work. These two models are beautifully made machines and a pleasure to use. The SAG 14 at work has never been cared for, yet it just goes on and on without fault. I have not seen a SAG 210 however. Personally I wouldn't touch that wrecked 210 except as a parts machine.
If you want one of the nicest lathes made, please treat yourself to a good one! I think the best place to check for parts is on the Graziano part of the Practical Machinist forum, however there has been very little posted about the 210. My guess is there are just not that many of that model around.
Here is one thread about the SAG 210. Note how one owner says the SAG 210 has a 'zero backlash' cross slide screw, so be looking for those parts. From reading this thread, it sounds like the 210 has the magnetic clutch-type gearbox, no doubt similar to that used on the SAG 12. Each 'speed' has its own magnetic clutch, and can't be tested without power. If you can't try it under power, I would expect the worst! These gearboxes can be rebuilt as several other threads show (and there was a 210 gearbox being offered in another thread last year), however it is impossible for me to recommend fixing that sorry example. Graziano cross slides are in theory quite straight forward parts - they are rectangular and machined all over, in other words a casting is not required, just a piece of cast iron.
The SAG 14 cross slide has external dovetails to which the compound slide is clamped. The compound slide has its own base independent of the cross slide. This allows the whole compound unit to be postioned where you want on the cross slide. So, in theory, I think the cross slide could be home made, though you would still need to then come up with a compound slide with its base to suit, maybe from a SAG 17? Ps #2 Graziano still exist as part of the Gildemeister group.
They haven't made manual lathes for many years though. Expect expensive parts prices! That's the kind of info I was looking for. I do like the look of those SAG 12's and 14's, and the owners seem to speak highly of them.
But it looks like this 210 is a somewhat more rare unit. As Moons noted, when I first saw it- and the price, he's asking $2K (!) - and I saw the missing cross-slide I figured nope, that thing's junk. Only reason I even bothered to go look was that it was only about eight miles away and I needed to get out of the shop. It didn't look much better in person, and it turns out there's some nontrivial forklift damage to the sheetmetal (but just the sheetmetal) so I was figuring it's just a fun outing looking at old machine tools. But like Moon said, once I started seeing some of the specs, I started to get genuinely interested.
I mean, a 22' swing is nothin' to sneeze at, and that 2' or 2-1/4' headstock bore can be downright handy. Better still, for those impressive specs, the machine really isn't all that big, physically. The bed is about 6-1/2' long from the headstock, so that means it's about a 5' center-to-center, and the whole thing is less than 9' long. I have a small shop so that's appealing- especially considering how large the capacities are. But, of course, it's a pig-in-a-poke.
It's impossible to put it under power; the thing's literally sitting in the middle of an open field right now. Power's sorta nearby, but the thing's about 5hp and 3phase, with the two input cables helpfully sheared off at the junction box. And right now, it's only about 12F out there.:) I'd love to have something with that capacity- especially without winding up with something 16 or 18 feet long- but I don't know if the guy'll come down to what it's worth (less than scrap, really, and scrap's cheap up here) and about the last thing I need is another massive project. On the third hand, I can't really be choosy up here.
Finding another machine with those specs basically ain't gonna happen. I have used Grazianos for years, having a SAG 12 of my own and a SAG 14 at work. These two models are beautifully made machines and a pleasure to use. From reading this thread, it sounds like the 210 has the magnetic clutch-type gearbox, no doubt similar to that used on the SAG 12.
A friend from Dallas who occasionally posts here just bought a Sag12 from Reliable. It's a beautiful machine. Like Peter says, very complex gearbox with twin (?) electromagnetic clutches on each drive shaft. I'll see if I can get John to reply:). Unfortuneately, I don't have a good picture of it complete. The bed was worn so I immediately pulled it and took it over to Commerce Grinding to be reground. I plan to Turcite the saddle to get it back into operation.
Mine has magnetic cluches in the gearbox (one for each of the four gearsets and two more for forward and reverse). This allows instant on-the-fly speed changes, as well as rotation direction, from the joystick on the apron. The headstock has manually changed back gears to give a total of 8 speeds. The layout in the pictures looks very similar to mine: the gearbox is at the bottom with the motor on the back of it and drives the headstock thru v-belts under the end cover.
If you are serious about getting the 210, you really need to make sure the clutches are intact and work beforehand. Mine seem fine (thankfully:) ), and they can be rewound if burned out, but I know of no source for the plates. I have read they are plain steel with no coating, so they could possibly be handmade if excessively worn. Does anyone know where replacement wipers for the saddle might be available? Or do you just need to make your own?
I'm considering offering the guy scrap price for it, and if he bites, I'll need as much outside technical help as I can get.:D We did open the end cover while I was there, and while the light was fading at the time, I could see there's a big gearbox in the foot, and three long belts going up to a pulley just to the left of the headstock. All of which looked in pretty decent condition- supposedly the thing had been tarped up until he took it off to snap the photos the day before. (I'm assuming he retarped it after I left.) But as I said, the thing's basically untestable as it is. It's outside, no 3-phase nearby, not sure if there's even 220v nearby, and it's damned cold.
Even if it were inside, I'd want to open things up a bit, change the gearbox oil, etc. Before I lit anything off. Plus there's the coating smeared on the leadscrew and feed rods, all over the bed and chuck.
Unfortunately, if I get it, it'll be as you see it, as is, where is. Like Cueball notes, I have little doubt in my ability of fix the thing. The issue is the tricky stuff- the clutches, headstock bearings (which I'd presume are massive and horribly expensive) and the wiring. There's a snake pit of wires in the tailstock-end leg, that appear to connect to, among other things, the carriage control box- and that box itself is bashed somewhat. I have seen somewhere.cant remember if it was on pm or elsewhere.
A detailed write up on a SAG12 referb. Showing a complete overhaul of the gearbox and re winding the clutch electromagnets.which could help you with that one. Rob Rob, The write up was made by GizmoWizard and featured on the PM forum Graziano pages along with a few other gems.
Here is Gizmo's excellent work, see Graziano SAG12 Transmission Repair: There has been another post since then discussing re winding the coils too, though not in such detail. I'm considering offering the guy scrap price for it, and if he bites, I'll need as much outside technical help as I can get.:D We did open the end cover while I was there, and while the light was fading at the time, I could see there's a big gearbox in the foot, and three long belts going up to a pulley just to the left of the headstock. All of which looked in pretty decent condition- supposedly the thing had been tarped up until he took it off to snap the photos the day before. (I'm assuming he retarped it after I left.) But as I said, the thing's basically untestable as it is. It's outside, no 3-phase nearby, not sure if there's even 220v nearby, and it's damned cold.
Even if it were inside, I'd want to open things up a bit, change the gearbox oil, etc. Before I lit anything off. Plus there's the coating smeared on the leadscrew and feed rods, all over the bed and chuck.
Unfortunately, if I get it, it'll be as you see it, as is, where is. Like Cueball notes, I have little doubt in my ability of fix the thing. The issue is the tricky stuff- the clutches, headstock bearings (which I'd presume are massive and horribly expensive) and the wiring. There's a snake pit of wires in the tailstock-end leg, that appear to connect to, among other things, the carriage control box- and that box itself is bashed somewhat. You're welcome. If you can get it for scrap price, then it would probably be a good project. If you decide to make a new cross slide and top slide assembly, I would recommend you buy appropriate sized bars of cast iron (Dura Bar).
I just finished making a new top slide for a Colchester 15x50 from this material and it turned out great. Once you study the wiring for a while, it is really straightforward. There is a transformer with a dual secondary: one secondary is 24V and is used to power the contactors - the other is connected to a full wave diode rectifier to power the clutch coils with raw rectified AC (no filters). The voltage is 28VDC, at least on my SAG12.
Then there is a magnetic starter for the main motor, and another for the coolant pump. Both of these have their own fuses and heaters for overload protection. The rest of the wiring is the wires going to/from the control on the apron, and to the clutched gearbox. The only non-standard circuitry is the delay relay used for the clutches. This is also hooked into the pressure switch on the oil pump at the front of the gearbox for protection of the gearbox. There is another high pressure oil pump in the headstock for the Gamet main bearings.
Pray that these bearings are good as you are correct - they are mucho expensive if replacement should be necessary.:eek. If you decide to make a new cross slide and top slide assembly, I would recommend you buy appropriate sized bars of cast iron (Dura Bar).That's probably the best bet. I'm told it basically just a rectangular block- no fancy casting needed, so it'd be easy to cut from a bar. Now, that bar will probably turn out to be 6' wide, 2' or 3' tall, and over a foot long, so I can see maybe a couple of hundred in raw material alone.
Pray that these bearings are good as you are correct - they are mucho expensive if replacement should be necessary.I checked eBay last night, and the only Graziano lathe part listed was a spindle bearing- for $4,700 Canadian. The spindle turns on this unit, and turns fairly easily, but of course, turning by hand is no indication of it at speed. Anyone know where I might be able to get a US-language manual for this machine? Something that gives service specs, oil requirements, general operating features, general how-to-use, that sort of thing?
If you decide to make a new cross slide and top slide assembly, I would recommend you buy appropriate sized bars of cast iron (Dura Bar). John, I shot you an email earlier today: on Doc's thread on PracticalMachinist, a SAG 210 owner mentioned that the saddle is steel, which is unique, AFAIK. I'm curious about that - on a cost-is-no-object lathe like the SAG, why would they not use cast iron for the saddle?
Is the machine so massive they didn't think they needed the vibration damping of cast iron? John, I shot you an email earlier today: on Doc's thread on PracticalMachinist, a SAG 210 owner mentioned that the saddle is steel, which is unique, AFAIK.
I'm curious about that - on a cost-is-no-object lathe like the SAG, why would they not use cast iron for the saddle? Is the machine so massive they didn't think they needed the vibration damping of cast iron? I am not sure what material the cross slide is on a SAG 14, it could be steel, but I would need to check closer. Steel would be much stronger than cast iron, and it needs strength because the compound slide assembly is clamped to external vee-ways/dovetails on the edges of the cross slide. I just assumed it was cast iron (despite being rectangular and machined-all-over) because of its wearing properties. The carriage itself is cast iron, maybe steel on cast iron is an acceptable slideway combination, I am a little dubious.
I would not describe Graziano lathes as heavy duty, they are not great lumps of cast iron, sort of medium duty I would guess. Because of their unique double-height vee-ways, they can swing massive sizes in their natural gap, this doesn't make them a heavy duty lathe however. As for cost-no-object - I am not so sure about that. I don't think they were particularly expensive lathes, but I have no figures to back that up. For example, my SAG 12 manual says the lathe is aimed particularly at vocational schools.
(And the toolmaking trade school I attended had a SAG 12). Yet it is a most beautifully made piece of machinery, hardened and ground parts everywhere, when you take it apart it seems built at cost-no-object. There is one 'uncouth' thing on the SAG 12 and SAG 14. The tiny lever on the apron which engages the feeds is a bit clunky.
Miniscule and functional, but clunky. Compare this to an old DS&G where the long slender lever engages feeds without the slightest hint of mechanical coarseness. I also find the standard cross slide dial graduations on the SAG 12 a bit coarse - it is a small dial graduated in tenths of mm (about.004').
However, I think there was a larger dial option with finer graduations (maybe US inch options?). The SAG 14 has a good sized dial (our one is graduated.001'). Hmmmm, Graziano's could do with a brake too, but I suspect the SAG 210 has a brake.
Some of the SAG 12s' had a brake, I think it simply electically engages the forward and reverse clutches at the same time. SAG 12 owners without a brake simply use reverse to slow the lathe, as you do on the SAG 14 with its mechanical clutch. Not sure if this was recommended by the makers, but it is what happens when no brake is supplied.
The SAG 14 at work with heavy 300mm/12' 3 jaw has been slowed using its reverse clutch for all its life without replacement, but of late the reverse clutch is a bit tired. John, I shot you an email earlier today: on Doc's thread on PracticalMachinist, a SAG 210 owner mentioned that the saddle is steel, which is unique, AFAIK. I'm curious about that - on a cost-is-no-object lathe like the SAG, why would they not use cast iron for the saddle? Is the machine so massive they didn't think they needed the vibration damping of cast iron? Could be steel on the 210, but my 12 is cast iron.
I would think wear of the bed rails would be excessive with steel, unless it has cast iron inserts or something like Turcite between the steel and cast iron bed. Considering the shape, I'm having a hard time imagining the saddle being steel - do you think he meant the cross slide instead? Or maybe someone broke the original and made a steel replacement??:confused. I was under the impression the guy meant the cross-slide was steel. I don't know what it looks like, so I can't say- but Tony's article on Lathes.co.uk doesn't mention anything about it.
The only reason I'd suspect it was, if it is, is as mentioned above- strength through some thin cross-section. Seems odd they'd go with a different material altogether rather than simply redesign the part to lose the weak point, so I suspect the fellow that mentioned that factoid is mistaken (or, as suggested, he has a model with a shop-made replacement.) Yet it is a most beautifully made piece of machinery, hardened and ground parts everywhere, when you take it apart it seems built at cost-no-object.Yeah, this is not a megadollar (megalira?:D ) lathe, or an end-all-be-all lathe like an all-the-bells-and-whistles 10EE or the like.
But the more I read about it, the more I see that it's clearly a pretty high quality machine.
Archive: lathes.co.uk email: Graziano SAG Lathes - Italy Instruction, Maintenance & Parts Manuals for many SAG lathes Graziano machine tools were made in Tortona, Italy and although a wide range of lathes was manufactured, the company's most popular appears to have been the SAG 180, later to be sold as the improved SAG 14. The later version had a bed some 3/8' wider, much larger micrometer dials, a hand-operated bed and cross slide lubrication pump, top and cross slides in steel instead of cast iron, a micrometer-dial equipped carriage-traverse handwheel and other small modifications. Designed as a high-class, precision machine (at an expensive £1048 in the late 1950s), the lathe was twice as costly as an English lathe of equivalent size yet, even so, found a ready market, especially in America, where several thousand were sold. With a 180 mm (7') centre-height, the lathe's had a bed that was flame-hardened and ground-finished with V-ways and constructed as a 'double-height' type - not unlike the arrangement used on some flat-bed Drummond lathes in the 1920s - with the carriage running on the covered lower ways and the tailstock on the higher (exposed) set.
The arrangement provided a usefully deep 'gap', though without the usual weakening effect of a removable bed piece. Fitted with multiple, longitudinal carriage 'throw-out' stops as standard, the carriage had long and very wide swarf covers that extended right to the tailstock end of the bed - this latter detail, and the raised bedways, can also be clearly seen in the photographs at the bottom of this page. While the lathe was generally on a par with the contemporary Colchester Triumph, its nine speeds (obtained through gears made from heat-treated and ground nickel-chrome steel forgings) were rather more useful, running from 45 to 1500 rpm or, optionally, 54 to 1800. With a 2-speed motor sixteen speeds from 30 to 1200 rpm could be obtained and the makers offered the facility to vary the top and bottom speeds by fitting different sizes of pulley.
The motor was a 5 h.p. Unit (with electrical control by a 'third shaft' operated by a lever pivoting from the right-hand face of the apron) with the spindle arranged for instant reverse through a double friction clutch (though not all models may have been so equipped). Usefully, the spindle start, stop and reverse could be operated from controls on the apron as well as the headstock. Equipped with a D.1-5' nose, the 2-inch bore spindle of the early 180 ran in plain bearings at the front - with bearings at the rear consisting of two axial thrust type and one parallel roller bearing.
Any thermal expansion of the spindle went towards the tailstock through a split phosphor bronze bush held in a conical taper housing - by which means it could be drawn in and the clearance adjusted. Later-model 180s had three English-made 'Gamet' high-precision bearings were and the spindle bore increased in size to 2.25 inches - changes carried over to the next model, the SAG 14. While the bushed spindle had a large notched threaded collar to adjust the bearing clearance, the Gamet-bearing equipped machines can be identified by a bevelled collar held on with socket head-cap screws behind the D1-5 spindle nose. One other change on later models was the deletion of a useful cast iron raiser block that bolted directly to T-slots at the rear of the cross slide - the block accepting custom-tool holders by Rapid of Italy.
Screwcutting and feeds was by a dual metric/inch fully-enclosed, all-lever gearbox (there were no openings to admit swarf or dirt) with initially, a 3-range A-B-C selection that was later increased to a 5-range A-B-C-D-E. Type Late-model lathes had a 3/8'-pitch leadscrew, early ones a 1/2'. Generously equipped for a 1960s model, the 180 had, as part of its standard equipment, a 12' independent 4-jaw chuck, fixed and travelling steadies, a Herson quick-change toolpost, coolant and spanners. As Graziano subjected the machine to continuous improvement, it is difficult to be specific about changes to the design; however, in summary, there were at least two versions of the SAG180: a 2' bore plain-bearing spindle with an 'A-B-C' screwcutting gearbox and a 1/2' pitch leadscrew, then a type with a Gamet bearing, 'A-B-C-D' gearbox with a 3/8' leadscrew. However, there may have been a third, or at least a maker's variation on specification (possibly to use up spare parts) - a 1978 SAG180 being found in the US with the A-B-C-D-E gearbox and a 2.25' spindle bore (thus being, in effect, a SAG14 labelled as a SAG180). The history of the Graziano concern is rather complicated: a Maho Graziano brochure dated 1989 says that in 1987 Graziano S.p.A was acquired by Maho AG and became Maho Graziano SPA. Although details of when is not known, by 1994 they were bankrupt and taken over by Gildemeister AG.
In 1996 DMG sold its majority stake in its Italian lathe manufacturer (though a name was not given, it is believed that they owned more than one) only to reacquire them (Graziano, Gital and Sacoand) in 2000 as 'Gildemeister Italiana'). The Graziano Tortona plant is still mentioned on the DMG website, though it's hard to pin down what the factory makes. In October 2013 the parent company was renamed from Gildemeister AG to DMG Mori Seiki AG. Graziano Model SAG 14 (previously the SAG 180) 7' centre height by 40' or 60' between centres with an unusual 'double-height' bed, not unlike an English from the 1920s. The 10-inch centre height Graziano Model SAG 508 was also badged as the SAG 20 and, with a reduced centre height, as the 230. It featured a hardened 'double-height' bed, clearly visible in this end-on illustration, fitted with long swarf-guard covers which extended right to the tailstock end.
The carriage sliding feed was fitted with multiple, longitudinal carriage 'throw-out' stops as standard and the spindle start, stop and reverse could be operated from controls on the apron. Running on Gamet high-precision bearings and fitted with a D.1-6' Camlock nose the 2.25' bore spindle was provided with twelve speeds from 26 to 1300 rpm - with an optional, slightly slower set available to special order. The headstock gears were made from heat-treated and ground nickel-chrome steel forgings whilst the screwcutting gearbox provided a range of English, Metric and Module pitches - 40 English, 40 metric, 40 diametral and 40 module - without resort to changing or resetting any of the changewheels. A 16' independent 4-jaw chuck, fixed and travelling steadies, Herson quick-change toolpost, coolant and spanners were supplied as standard.
A SAG 20 / SAG 508 / SAG 230 with slightly different styling-but of identical mechanical construction to the 508 shown above. This model was offered with centre distances of 1500 mm (59'), 2000 mm (78.7') and 2500 mm (98.4').
Graziano Sag 14 Lathe Manual
The swing in the gap was 708 mm (27.8'). Clearly seen in this illustration the double-height bed of the Sag 12 (SAG 153) continued the Grazianio tradition on this, the smallest lathe in the series. The Model 12, had a centre height of 153 mm (6') and accepted 800 mm (31.5') between centres. A detachable gap piece was listed as an option and, with this removed, is was possible to turn a piece of material 440 mm (17') in diameter and 200 mm deep. English Gamet high-precision bearings were selected for the headstock - a double row of opposed rollers behind the nose and the end bearing (in a manner employed on many Colchester lathes at the time) having an outer ring preloaded by a set of springs to compensate for the effects of heating. The 1 5/8 ' bore spindle used a D.1-4' Camlock nose, a 4 Morse taper centre and was provided with eight speeds from 80 to 2000 r.p.m. A very useful feature of these machines was the ability to change spindle speeds on the move - a system that involved four gears, in constant mesh in the main gearbox, being free to turn on their shafts but with each connected to a magnetically operated clutch that could lock it to its shaft.
As a further refinement a forward/reverse clutch was also fitted that meant changes of both speed and direction could be managed by simply activating the required clutch through a small 'joy-stick' on the carriage - a small 'click' giving an instant change as the gear became locked. Normally eight speeds were provided but, with the optional 2-speed motor fitted, this became 16.
However, although this was a most useful speed range - and very easily controlled - like Italian cars of the period the lathe's electrical reliability did not inspire the greatest of confidence. Able to generate a generous range of 60 rates of sliding and surfacing feeds and 30 English, 30 metric and 30 module threads the screwcutting gearbox was fully sealed against the ingress of dirt and chips, operated by rotary controls and fitted with its own centralised lubrication system. A later model, the Sag 12S, looked rather different to the standard 12 however, it was basically the same lathe, but with 'squared' styling and a more appealing blue paint finish. However, one major change was the replacement of an electric change gearbox by an expanding/contracting 'Reeves' pulley-drive system, although the forward and reverse electric clutch and electric brake were retained and the speed, direction and braking of the spindle still controlled by switches on the carriage. Most of these SAG 12 lathes are found with a 3 HP motor - and weighed approximately 1000 kg.
Graziano SAG 180. This is an early model with the bed ways about 268 mm wide compared with 280 mm on a SAG14 lathe A standard fitting on early models, on late examples the cast iron raiser block at the back of the cross slide was no longer fitted SAG180. Screwcutting and feeds was by a dual metric/inch fully-enclosed, all-lever gearbox (there were no openings to admit swarf or dirt) with initially (as shown), a 3-range A-B-C selection that was later increased to 5-range A-B-C-D-E. Sag 180 spindle bearing email: Graziano SAG Lathes - Italy Instruction, Maintenance & Parts Manuals for many SAG lathes.
Graziano Sag 14 Lathe Manual
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Purchasers shall comply with all environmental laws and regulations and all requirements established by the Auctioneer for the removal of articles, including providing proper insurance and which Riggers may operate on site; please refer to the 'REMOVAL REQUIREMENTS' below or on the inside back cover. No Purchasers may assign, transfer or dispose of their rights in any article purchased before they have paid the purchase price in full. Notwithstanding, these terms and conditions shall continue to be in effect and automatically transferred to any assignee or transferee. Where available, documents of transfer, including motor vehicle ownership documents, which are in possession of the Auctioneer, will be provided to the Purchaser following the auction or as soon thereafter as such documents become available. The Auctioneer assumes no responsibility or any liability once title passes, which occurs at time of payment in full. Purchasers are advised to prearrange for insurance coverage of their purchase(s).
Time shall be of the essence. Title will revert to seller in the event Purchaser does not remove their purchase by the time specified.
If a Purchaser fails to make payment or remove goods within the time periods herein above provided, the Auctioneer may resell the article purchased by auction, private contract or otherwise, as the Auctioneer in his discretion deems advisable. If the Auctioneer makes a good faith attempt to resell the article but cannot, he may dispose or scrap the article. The Purchaser shall be liable for the shortfall and all costs and expenses incurred in such resale or scrapping, as described in paragraph 15.
These costs and expenses include, but are not limited to, attorney fees, court costs, law enforcement costs, moving and storage costs, and any other commissions incurred or fees assessed by the Auctioneer. Attorney fees and costs include, but are not limited to, such fees and costs incurred in the pursuit of a claim, judgment or a citation against the Purchaser(s) and/or any Guarantor(s).
These terms and conditions together with any amendments or modifications expressly made by the Auctioneer at the time of the auction constitute all the terms and conditions with respect to the sale of articles at this auction. There are no representations, warranties, terms, conditions, undertakings or collateral agreements except as hereinabove provided. REMOVAL REQUIREMENTS The following are terms & conditions to abide by for all Purchasers, their employees, riggers, machinery movers, contractors and agents; (who will be further referred to as 'Purchasers/Movers/Riggers'), who participate in the disconnection and/or removal of items purchased at auction.
All invoices must be paid in full before commencement of removal. Check with Corporate Assets Inc.' S site representative and Accounting Department if you have any questions. Purchasers/Movers/Riggers are responsible to remove all articles purchased. 'CI' on the purchaser's invoice designates that a proper certificate of insurance is required before any item marked 'CI' can be mechanically removed. Furthermore, properly authorized rigger release instructions, in writing, are required by Corporate Assets Inc.'
S office before a Purchaser/Mover/Rigger can commence removal of these items. This form can be downloaded from www.corpassets.com. CUSTOM MACHINING & FABRICATING FACILITY FEATURING: CERUTI ABC 75 3' table type horizontal boring mill; GRAZIANO TORTONA SAG 20, 26 X 82 engine lathe; GRAZIANO TORTONA SAG 14, 20 X 60 engine lathe; MONARCH 20CM, 27.5 X 72 engine lathe; STANDARD MODERN 1760, 23 X 63 engine lathe; DOALL (2005) C-916 horizontal band saw; DOALL METALMASTER ML vertical band saw; TACCHELLA 715UA universal cylindrical grinder; JONES & SHIPMAN 1302 universal cylindrical grinder; GALLMYER & LIVINGSTON NO. 55 hydraulic surface grinder; DOALL hydraulic surface grinder; (2) HARIG SUPER 618 manual surface grinders; MILWAUKEE NO. TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SALE Subject to amendments and modifications announced by the Auctioneer at the time of the auction, all persons participating in the auction shall be bound by the following terms and conditions and as stated or otherwise set forth in the brochure and/or on the Auctioneer's website www.corpassets.com. BUYERS PREMIUM: A 16% Buyer's Premium will apply to On-Site at this sale.
A 18% Buyers Premium will apply to On-line Bidders and Proxy Bidders at this sale. This sale will be conducted in Canadian dollars (CAD). INTERNET BIDDERS: Pre-Approval by the auctioneer will be required. All Internet Bidders require a deposit equal to 25% of their limit, plus the Buyer's Premium of 18% and must be made by Bank Wire Transfer. To ensure approval as a Bidder please make deposit arrangements as far in advance of the sale as possible. PROXY BIDS: If you are unable to attend this sale we can act on your behalf. Contact our office at 416-962-9600 or visit our web site for more information on how to place a proxy bid, our Proxy Bid Policy and deposit requirements.
REMOVAL: Contact our office at 416-962-9600 or visit the Corporate Assets Inc. Web site for more information and removal deadlines. Complete removal requirements are outlined below. Absolutely NO items may be removed while the auction is in progress.
In order to register and participate as a bidder, Bidders are required to provide a minimum 25% deposit to establish their requested credit limit together with identification of either a valid Driver's License or Passport. The Auctioneer reserves the right to refuse any applicant the privilege of bidding, participating or attending the auction and may revoke such privilege at any time. Payment in full must be made immediately after the conclusion of the auction. Deposit payments or payments on account may be made in advance of the auction by way of bank wire transfer and any balance in excess of the balance owing will be refunded to the Bidder or Purchaser (as the case may be) after the auction. For International (Non Canadian and U.S. Residents) Purchasers, Webcast Remote Purchasers & Online Purchasers, payments shall be by way of bank wire transfer. For Canadian and U.S.
On-site Purchasers, all payments shall be by way of wire transfer, certified cheque, bank draft, Interac, or company cheque accompanied with a valid bank letter of authorization guaranteeing irrevocable payment to Corporate Assets Inc. In the following format: 'Name of Bank hereby guarantees irrevocable payment of cheques payable to Corporate Assets Inc. Up to Amount in Words & Currency for purchases made by our client Name of Client. This letter is valid for purchases made at the auction of Name of Auction being held in City, State/Province on Date.'
Payments by way of Visa or Mastercard will ONLY be accepted for purchases and not for deposits, from Purchasers whose total invoice does not exceed $2,500. An Administration Fee may apply subject to the Auctioneer's discretion. A Buyer's Premium as posted on our website or announced, will apply at this sale. All applicable sales taxes arising on a sale shall be paid to the Auctioneer at the time of sale. All Articles will be sold to the highest bidder conforming to the bid process, provided that the Auctioneer reserves the right to sell articles by individual, grouped lots and 'in bulk', as the Auctioneer deems appropriate. The Auctioneer reserves the right to sell on behalf of third parties, its own account or on the account of others. Should any dispute arise between two or more bidders or as to any bid, the lot in question may, at the Auctioneer's discretion, be immediately put up again and resold.
The Auctioneer shall regulate all matters relating to the conduct of the auction and the Auctioneer's decision shall be final and binding on all bidders. The records kept by the clerk of the sale, shall in all cases be accepted by the bidder as final.
The Auctioneer reserves the right to sell subject to reserve and to bid for its own account and for the account of others, whether by verbal or written proxy, all subject to prior sale. All sales shall be concluded as indicated by the Auctioneer and no Purchaser may thereafter revoke their bid. Title to the lots purchased shall not pass until payment in full of the purchase price is received. ALL SALES ARE FINAL, ON AN 'AS IS WHERE IS', 'IN PLACE' 'WITH ALL FAULTS' BASIS WITH NO CONDITIONS OR WARRANTIES WHETHER EXPRESSED, IMPLIED, STATUTORY OR OTHERWISE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS AS TO TITLE, DESCRIPTION, FITNESS FOR PURPOSE, QUANTITY, QUALITY, MERCHANTABILITY, STATE, CONDITION, LOCATION OR OTHERWISE. NO SALE SHALL BE INVALIDATED AND THE AUCTIONEER SHALL HAVE NO LIABILITY FOR A MISDESCRIPTION OF ANY ARTICLE OR LOT WHETHER CONTAINED IN A CATALOGUE, ADVERTISEMENT, ORAL ANNOUNCEMENT OR OTHERWISE. DESCRIPTIONS HAVE BEEN PREPARED FOR GUIDE PURPOSES ONLY AND SHALL NOT BE RELIED UPON BY THE PURCHASER FOR ACCURACY OR COMPLETENESS. PLEASE INSPECT ALL ITEMS BEFORE BIDDING.
PURCHASERS SHALL BE DEEMED TO HAVE RELIED ENTIRELY UPON THEIR OWN INSPECTIONS AND INVESTIGATIONS. No article shall be removed unless paid for in full and all articles purchased shall be removed within the guidelines and terms stipulated. The Purchaser shall be responsible for all costs of removal and shall be liable for any damages, including without limitation, any environmental damage, caused during or as a result of the removal. Purchasers shall comply with all environmental laws and regulations and all requirements established by the Auctioneer for the removal of articles, including providing proper insurance and which Riggers may operate on site; please refer to the 'REMOVAL REQUIREMENTS' below or on the inside back cover. No Purchasers may assign, transfer or dispose of their rights in any article purchased before they have paid the purchase price in full.
Notwithstanding, these terms and conditions shall continue to be in effect and automatically transferred to any assignee or transferee. Where available, documents of transfer, including motor vehicle ownership documents, which are in possession of the Auctioneer, will be provided to the Purchaser following the auction or as soon thereafter as such documents become available. The Auctioneer assumes no responsibility or any liability once title passes, which occurs at time of payment in full. Purchasers are advised to prearrange for insurance coverage of their purchase(s). Time shall be of the essence.
Title will revert to seller in the event Purchaser does not remove their purchase by the time specified. If a Purchaser fails to make payment or remove goods within the time periods herein above provided, the Auctioneer may resell the article purchased by auction, private contract or otherwise, as the Auctioneer in his discretion deems advisable.
If the Auctioneer makes a good faith attempt to resell the article but cannot, he may dispose or scrap the article. The Purchaser shall be liable for the shortfall and all costs and expenses incurred in such resale or scrapping, as described in paragraph 15. These costs and expenses include, but are not limited to, attorney fees, court costs, law enforcement costs, moving and storage costs, and any other commissions incurred or fees assessed by the Auctioneer. Attorney fees and costs include, but are not limited to, such fees and costs incurred in the pursuit of a claim, judgment or a citation against the Purchaser(s) and/or any Guarantor(s). These terms and conditions together with any amendments or modifications expressly made by the Auctioneer at the time of the auction constitute all the terms and conditions with respect to the sale of articles at this auction. There are no representations, warranties, terms, conditions, undertakings or collateral agreements except as hereinabove provided. REMOVAL REQUIREMENTS The following are terms & conditions to abide by for all Purchasers, their employees, riggers, machinery movers, contractors and agents; (who will be further referred to as 'Purchasers/Movers/Riggers'), who participate in the disconnection and/or removal of items purchased at auction.
All invoices must be paid in full before commencement of removal. Check with Corporate Assets Inc.' S site representative and Accounting Department if you have any questions. Purchasers/Movers/Riggers are responsible to remove all articles purchased.
'CI' on the purchaser's invoice designates that a proper certificate of insurance is required before any item marked 'CI' can be mechanically removed. Furthermore, properly authorized rigger release instructions, in writing, are required by Corporate Assets Inc.' S office before a Purchaser/Mover/Rigger can commence removal of these items. This form can be downloaded from www.corpassets.com.
This is from Tony Griffith email: Graziano SAG Lathes - Italy Instruction, Maintenance & Parts Manuals for many SAG lathes Graziano machine tools were made in Tortona, Italy and although a wide range of lathes was manufactured, the company's most popular appears to have been the SAG 180, later to be sold as the improved SAG 14. The later version had a bed some 3/8' wider, much larger micrometer dials, a hand-operated bed and cross slide lubrication pump, top and cross slides in steel instead of cast iron, a micrometer-dial equipped carriage-traverse handwheel and other small modifications.
Designed as a high-class, precision machine (at an expensive £1048 in the late 1950s), the lathe was twice as costly as an English lathe of equivalent size yet, even so, found a ready market, especially in America, where several thousand were sold. With a 180 mm (7') centre-height, the lathe's had a bed that was flame-hardened and ground-finished with V-ways and constructed as a 'double-height' type - not unlike the arrangement used on some flat-bed Drummond lathes in the 1920s - with the carriage running on the covered lower ways and the tailstock on the higher (exposed) set. The arrangement provided a usefully deep 'gap', though without the usual weakening effect of a removable bed piece. Fitted with multiple, longitudinal carriage 'throw-out' stops as standard, the carriage had long and very wide swarf covers that extended right to the tailstock end of the bed - this latter detail, and the raised bedways, can also be clearly seen in the photographs at the bottom of this page. While the lathe was generally on a par with the contemporary Colchester Triumph, its nine speeds (obtained through gears made from heat-treated and ground nickel-chrome steel forgings) were rather more useful, running from 45 to 1500 rpm or, optionally, 54 to 1800.
With a 2-speed motor sixteen speeds from 30 to 1200 rpm could be obtained and the makers offered the facility to vary the top and bottom speeds by fitting different sizes of pulley. The motor was a 5 h.p.
Unit (with electrical control by a 'third shaft' operated by a lever pivoting from the right-hand face of the apron) with the spindle arranged for instant reverse through a double friction clutch (though not all models may have been so equipped). Usefully, the spindle start, stop and reverse could be operated from controls on the apron as well as the headstock. Equipped with a D.1-5' nose, the 2-inch bore spindle of the early 180 ran in plain bearings at the front - with bearings at the rear consisting of two axial thrust type and one parallel roller bearing. Any thermal expansion of the spindle went towards the tailstock through a split phosphor bronze bush held in a conical taper housing - by which means it could be drawn in and the clearance adjusted.
Later-model 180s had three English-made 'Gamet' high-precision bearings were and the spindle bore increased in size to 2.25 inches - changes carried over to the next model, the SAG 14. While the bushed spindle had a large notched threaded collar to adjust the bearing clearance, the Gamet-bearing equipped machines can be identified by a bevelled collar held on with socket head-cap screws behind the D1-5 spindle nose. One other change on later models was the deletion of a useful cast iron raiser block that bolted directly to T-slots at the rear of the cross slide - the block accepting custom-tool holders by Rapid of Italy.
Screwcutting and feeds was by a dual metric/inch fully-enclosed, all-lever gearbox (there were no openings to admit swarf or dirt) with initially, a 3-range A-B-C selection that was later increased to a 5-range A-B-C-D-E. Type Late-model lathes had a 3/8'-pitch leadscrew, early ones a 1/2'. Generously equipped for a 1960s model, the 180 had, as part of its standard equipment, a 12' independent 4-jaw chuck, fixed and travelling steadies, a Herson quick-change toolpost, coolant and spanners. As Graziano subjected the machine to continuous improvement, it is difficult to be specific about changes to the design; however, in summary, there were at least two versions of the SAG180: a 2' bore plain-bearing spindle with an 'A-B-C' screwcutting gearbox and a 1/2' pitch leadscrew, then a type with a Gamet bearing, 'A-B-C-D' gearbox with a 3/8' leadscrew. However, there may have been a third, or at least a maker's variation on specification (possibly to use up spare parts) - a 1978 SAG180 being found in the US with the A-B-C-D-E gearbox and a 2.25' spindle bore (thus being, in effect, a SAG14 labelled as a SAG180).
The history of the Graziano concern is rather complicated: a Maho Graziano brochure dated 1989 says that in 1987 Graziano S.p.A was acquired by Maho AG and became Maho Graziano SPA. Although details of when is not known, by 1994 they were bankrupt and taken over by Gildemeister AG. In 1996 DMG sold its majority stake in its Italian lathe manufacturer (though a name was not given, it is believed that they owned more than one) only to reacquire them (Graziano, Gital and Sacoand) in 2000 as 'Gildemeister Italiana'). The Graziano Tortona plant is still mentioned on the DMG website, though it's hard to pin down what the factory makes. In October 2013 the parent company was renamed from Gildemeister AG to DMG Mori Seiki AG.
Graziano Model SAG 14 (previously the SAG 180) 7' centre height by 40' or 60' between centres with an unusual 'double-height' bed, not unlike an English from the 1920s. The 10-inch centre height Graziano Model SAG 508 was also badged as the SAG 20 and, with a reduced centre height, as the 230. It featured a hardened 'double-height' bed, clearly visible in this end-on illustration, fitted with long swarf-guard covers which extended right to the tailstock end. The carriage sliding feed was fitted with multiple, longitudinal carriage 'throw-out' stops as standard and the spindle start, stop and reverse could be operated from controls on the apron. Running on Gamet high-precision bearings and fitted with a D.1-6' Camlock nose the 2.25' bore spindle was provided with twelve speeds from 26 to 1300 rpm - with an optional, slightly slower set available to special order. The headstock gears were made from heat-treated and ground nickel-chrome steel forgings whilst the screwcutting gearbox provided a range of English, Metric and Module pitches - 40 English, 40 metric, 40 diametral and 40 module - without resort to changing or resetting any of the changewheels. A 16' independent 4-jaw chuck, fixed and travelling steadies, Herson quick-change toolpost, coolant and spanners were supplied as standard.
A SAG 20 / SAG 508 / SAG 230 with slightly different styling-but of identical mechanical construction to the 508 shown above. This model was offered with centre distances of 1500 mm (59'), 2000 mm (78.7') and 2500 mm (98.4'). The swing in the gap was 708 mm (27.8'). Clearly seen in this illustration the double-height bed of the Sag 12 (SAG 153) continued the Grazianio tradition on this, the smallest lathe in the series. The Model 12, had a centre height of 153 mm (6') and accepted 800 mm (31.5') between centres. A detachable gap piece was listed as an option and, with this removed, is was possible to turn a piece of material 440 mm (17') in diameter and 200 mm deep. English Gamet high-precision bearings were selected for the headstock - a double row of opposed rollers behind the nose and the end bearing (in a manner employed on many Colchester lathes at the time) having an outer ring preloaded by a set of springs to compensate for the effects of heating.
The 15/8' bore spindle used a D.1-4' Camlock nose, a 4 Morse taper centre and was provided with eight speeds from 80 to 2000 r.p.m. A very useful feature of these machines was the ability to change spindle speeds on the move - a system that involved four gears, in constant mesh in the main gearbox, being free to turn on their shafts but with each connected to a magnetically operated clutch that could lock it to its shaft. As a further refinement a forward/reverse clutch was also fitted that meant changes of both speed and direction could be managed by simply activating the required clutch through a small 'joy-stick' on the carriage - a small 'click' giving an instant change as the gear became locked. Normally eight speeds were provided but, with the optional 2-speed motor fitted, this became 16. However, although this was a most useful speed range - and very easily controlled - like Italian cars of the period the lathe's electrical reliability did not inspire the greatest of confidence. Able to generate a generous range of 60 rates of sliding and surfacing feeds and 30 English, 30 metric and 30 module threads the screwcutting gearbox was fully sealed against the ingress of dirt and chips, operated by rotary controls and fitted with its own centralised lubrication system.
A later model, the Sag 12S, looked rather different to the standard 12 however, it was basically the same lathe, but with 'squared' styling and a more appealing blue paint finish. However, one major change was the replacement of an electric change gearbox by an expanding/contracting 'Reeves' pulley-drive system, although the forward and reverse electric clutch and electric brake were retained and the speed, direction and braking of the spindle still controlled by switches on the carriage. Most of these SAG 12 lathes are found with a 3 HP motor - and weighed approximately 1000 kg. Hi Ted, I need to pull the apron off and do some repairs/tuneup.
The oil leaks out of the apron a little too fast. So I need to locate the source of the leak (most likely a seal) and repair as needed. Also, the cross slide feed will not fully engage. You can hold the lever and it works but the lever will not go over center so it will remain there without holding it. I have removed the feed handle cover and can not find any issues. It seems something is preventing the rod from pulling all the way out.
I believe I have the manual as well, I'll look ate the parts I think are affected and get your opinion on it. Skyboy, I took a look at the parts break-down drawings for the cross feed engagement mechanism and it's a little difficult to figure out exactly how all of that works just by looking at the drawing. One thing I did notice is that there are a couple of dowel pins that lock various components to different shafts, so I think one of the first things I would look at are those pins to make sure one of them isn't sheared. I have seen pins shear where they leave a burr that tends to catch in one direction and not the other. I noticed that the hub that the engagement handle threads into has a pin through it that appears to lock that hub to a spur gear inside the enclosure (box?). That spur gear appears to engage a round shaft with teeth on the bottom side that acts like a rack gear. Rotation of the spur gear via the engagement handle pulls that shaft/rack gear in and out to engage the cross feed drive gears.
That shaft/rack gear also has a pin through it that could be sheared. Also, there is the adjustment knob at the bottom of that box that increases or decreases the engagement pressure of the clutch mechanism for the crossfeed/carriage drive. I don't know if that mechanism could cause your problem or not. Anyway, just kicking around some ideas. I'll look at the drawings some more to see if I can come up with anything.
Dan, In my possibly biased opinion, a very good lathe, fun to use and well designed and built. Why are they fun to use? Because spindle speed, direction and on/off are all controlled by one 'joy stick' on the right hand of the saddle. Speed change is instant, just a little twist, and it immeadiately jumps to the speed you've clicked to. In the space of a second you can change speed four times, and change direction too if you want. This is because the gearbox has four magnetic clutches, each attached to a constant-mesh gear.
By switching off one clutch and switching on another you get instant on-the-fly speed change. And another two magnetic clutches for forward and reverse. And the clever design you ask? Well, the vee ways are covered, so no chips can get to them. This is because the tailstock has its own ways, they are a lot higher than the carriage ways.
This means the main ways can be well covered from above. The tailstock ways stop well short of the spindle, so you have a natural gap-bed effect - a lathe which swings 6' over the crosslide can also swing 17' in the permanent 'gap'. Are they well built?
I took my carriage to bits for a look - what a beauty! Fine engineering throughout. The headstock has its own oil pump keeping the Gamet bearings happy, and the main speed change gearbox is seperate, it has its own oil pump too. Another good idea, it has holes in the bed casting that allow you to stick a length of round steel through at each end of the lathe, and so sling the lathe easily without doing any damage.
(weighs 1000 kgs, 2208 lbs). (Note, Graziano later made a Sag 12'S' with Reeves drive, maybe the electric change gearbox of the Sag 12 was too expensive to build)?
Now, where was I? A manual, I've got one, if you can't find something closer to home, let me know.
Check out Tony for interesting Graziano stuff. Doc, I got the Sag12 home wired up. Spindle is quiet, but the lower trans is a bit too loud.
I think (hope) it is just some bearings. Seems to be a little quieter in reverse.
The lathe has a very bad paint job on it and I will have to repaint it to get it looking the way I want. It looks like I can take off the 4 bolts that hold the trans in the base and pull the trans and motor together. Any thoughts on this? I also removed the head stock cover and check the gears, they look great plus I turned it on and watch the oil pump, COOL!!! I going to drain, flush and clean out the head stock case and refill with a good oil. Does the manual show how to take the trans apart?
Thanks for your help-Dan. Dan, Noise in gearbox. Check to see you have the motor turning in the right direction, when you lift the hand control, the spindle should rotate in the normal direction. Down for reverse. Don't be in a hurry to dismantle unless you are pretty happy with such a job ie bearings pressed onto shafts, need for absolute cleanliness etc. Lots of stuff in there, needle bearings, clutch packs etc. My lathe, when idling, makes some noise, the motor is turning the input shaft of the gearbox all the time.
When the spindle is started there is a whining noise from the gearbox, not too loud. Note, in the lower gearbox, the oil pump sticks out, you will see it when you open the door, it has a filter behind the screwed-in bung. My manual only shows parts, no instructions at all except for lubrication. Looks like the four bolts are all that holds the gearbox in. One problem you may have - The lathe starts OK, but after a minute, the motor cuts out. There is a oil pressure switch on the lower oil pump, if pressure drops it cuts the motor. There is a timer in the sytem that allows the motor to start and get up pressure.
If it gets to be a problem, I think I would by-pass the switch and put a pressure gauge in the system, one that can be viewed from out side. Graziano told me the lower gearbox pressure should be 3-5 ATM. I guess this means 'Atmospheres', so 45-75 psi. Either that, or put in a switch with a lower psi setting. The Sag 14 uses a 'normal' gearbox with 'normal' clutch, no electrickery involved.
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